Low Moisture Cleaning is just surface cleaning

For you guys that use a very low moisture method to clean carpets. What is your response to comments like, " low moisture cleaning just cleans the surface of the carpet" "It just grinds the dirt deep in the carpet" "You should be ashamed for using that process"

I say, "I used to argue that exact point! HWE is the only way go. So I set out to prove it. But all I proved was that my pride is bitter, almost impossible to swallow, and causes terrible indigestion. Education was the only remedy."

Here's an eye opening test (for me anyway) that I did a couple of years back.

I took some carpet and pad out of a rental property. I cut it into 3' x 8' strips. I already had a couple of pieces of lexan that same size, that's why I cut them that size.

I secured the pad and carpet to the lexan as best as I could. I didn't want to glue it, so I wrapped the ends and middle with Gorilla duct tape, really tight.

This carpet was your typical trashed rental type. I was told that it was around 12 years old.

I padcapped one strip. I HWE'd the other one. 300 psi and about 185deg at the tip.

Both sides cleaned up great, everything came out, and just at looking, there was no discernible difference. Until I turned them over. The HWE'd strip was nasty!!!

My conclusion: HWE uses so much water, at a high pressure, that actually its much easier to put dirt further into the pad and carpet than padcapping does by "grinding" it into the carpet. That may explain why I always had much more call backs for wicking with HWE than I've ever had with padcapping.

That was a very interesting test Real Clean.

So you take everything you hear on the forums with a grain of salt and test everything yourself.

I honestly don't spend much time on forums. The few times I've checked them out it just really seemed like a "NOBODY CLEANS BETTER'N ME BY GAWD!!" attitude. Joe turned me onto the cafe and it was enjoyable.

I do test everything though. I'm real nerdy like that.   The wifey is always poking fun at my experiments. I just really despise ignorance and I always want to know how things work.

You should have seen my wife's face when she saw me uploading a video of me dumping a bucket of pads in dirty water 

when I get that response I just show them the pads Im using and the soil that is being absorbed. It works, I've seen it and my clients have too. Hard to argue with results.

One thing to consider. A clear water flood turns to grey water in as little as 2 hours. Now I love my truckmount and extraction so I'm not throwing rocks but... if that rug says wet for 6 or eight hours depending on air temp, humidity and other factors and you didn't remove all the soil, which we never do if we are honest then what could happen to bacteria counts?

Now if I low moisture and dry in 20 minutes to and hour and a half and my cleaner dries to a film that can lock out oxygen. What do you think that might do to bacteria counts?

Now that is just an example to get you thinking but LM can do a lot when used in the correct situations. People want to compare a maintenance method to a restorative method  

The better equation is to select the correct method for the job at hand. If bonnet is just grinding in the dirt then extraction is pressure washing it into and through the backing.
Both are possible but not probable if done correctly.

The better equation is to select the correct method for the job at hand. If bonnet is just grinding in the dirt then extraction is pressure washing it into and through the backing.
Both are possible but not probable if done correctly.

That is the key point...if done correctly all is good. Nobody should be leaving carpet wet for hours with hwe and nobody should just be grinding when vlm. The right tool is the one used correctly.

milspec6 wrote:The better equation is to select the correct method for the job at hand. If bonnet is just grinding in the dirt then extraction is pressure washing it into and through the backing.
Both are possible but not probable if done correctly.

That is the key point...if done correctly all is good.  Nobody should be leaving carpet wet for hours with hwe and nobody should just be grinding when vlm.  The right tool is the one used correctly.

sorry I clicked on a small green scroll bar with a plus and minus sign and accidently rated your reply . I did not know that would happen.

Fred H wrote:
sorry I clicked on a small green scroll bar with a plus and minus sign and accidently rated your reply . I did not know that would happen.

HaHa, I've done that before!!   

Hey, "what does this button do", right!@   

Why not test for yourself so you KNOW the truth about Padding?
Many have and now they are not easily swayed.
ATP testing shows (and it is scientific) exactly what you are removing or leaving in a carpet.. you will never get as low a rating with HWE as you do with Padding..
Then use microscopes and take pictures of the carpet before cleaning and after, PROVE what you are saying.
All too often cleaner are trying to impress other cleaners and NOT the customer, who in the end it the ONLY one who matters.
The benefits of VLM are huge, use them, talk about them and after you have tested these things for yourself, you won't CARE what other cleaners have to say,
you will benefit from the success you have with your customers.
Secondly the vlm business model is much more cost effective and practical.

I don't get that question about encapsulation. I am selling http://www.pearsoncarpetcare.com. So when they show up after I have cleaned the carpet and their spots are gone they never ask how I will be cleaning it. If they ask during the inspection process I tell them that I have many methods available to me and I might use one or all of them to get your carpet clean. I am not selling a method I am selling clean.

idk I use an ETM and carpet is dry in 2-3hrs tops with more plush, just about anything else is dry close to an hr.

I never have had the 8-12hr thing, we do dry passes and mostly use a 360 I would have to go really fast and soak the carpet somehow to have it take that long.. and this isnt a big time truck mount

but ive seen videos on youtube of guys literally pressure washing with their hydro force, "pre treating"

its kinda funny what some people will do so they dont have to pre scrub a dirty one lol

Does hundreds (maybe thousands) of jobs with both methods count as testing for your self? If so , I have developed the opinion that HWE rules in residential, and VLM rules in commercial.

I have gotten the above objections from potential customers, and I made it my business to "educate" them on the benefits of VLM.

But in the end I found it much easer to just say "I have a TM" they respond better to that.

My dry times are close with VLM as TM, Normally 2 hours VLM, and 3 hours TM. Not a big diff.

The above opinion has gotten me kicked off one forum, as "bashing" Please don't kick me off Mo, I like it here.

Don't see why it would Andy, sounds like a reasonable statement to me?

I can be a "little slow" at times, but I have come to the conclusion that encaps make a great cleaning agent, so all that is left to decide is how do you want to remove the separated soil?

It doesn't matter if you are using water extraction or bonnets to remove that soil as long as you do it correctly. Each method has benefits and detriments, just choose the one that works for you.

Yeah but you didn't give me a chance to proof read your comments first  

I still OP but is sure is nice to offer both

lol

Hey guys, we are looking into vlm's ... can anyone recommend brand names? pros / cons? thanks!

Machines or chems Jeff

Both Mo, we only do hwe and bonnet currently. thanks!

commercial or residential? For residential , I would say get a crb, use that for a deep scrub before running your 175 and bonnet. That will work as good as anything.

For commercial, my favorite is a wheel down OP machine with on board sprayer. Joes encap works as well as anything else I've tried at half the price of most.

I've tried (almost) every single encap product on the market. In my opinion, from years of testing side by side, there are 2 great ones...
1) Soils & Oils by Wanders
2) Releasit by Excellent Supply

As a spotter/filtration line remover.....
1) Spot-n-Boost by Vacaway

Red stain remover.....
1) Red Release by Wanders

Odor remover/counteractant....
1) Joedercide (aka The Shizzle for Rizzle) by Wanders

There are others that are good, but both Wanders and Excellent Supply set the standard imo. Soils&Oils is my primary encap now. It works awesome and Joe doesn't rip you off.


As for machines, Oscillating is superior to rotary in several areas from my experience.

Lots of great suggestions...keep em coming! Thanks!   

This thread is a perfect example why we ALL should be able to clean in both system, HWE or VLM. I am working on adding the. VLM to our vans. After observing the absorption of the bonnets available there is no doubt that an extraction process is taking place. Also, with experience you can determine which carpet or soiling will need which method for better results. Or use a combo when the situation call for it.